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November 11[edit]

More Native Americans questions.[edit]

Do we know if when 2 Native American tribes are allies or enemies, on if they speak the same broad language or different? I feel like if they can't speak the same language, it's tough for them to be allies. Do we know if some Native American tribes, say by 1600s, were a merge of 2 or more tribes, like a smaller tribe merged into a larger tribe (assuming they speak the same language.). From Canada to South America. 67.175.224.138 (talk) 04:17, 11 November 2018 (UTC).

The Huron were Iroquoian and spoke an Iroquoian language, but they were the enemy of the Haudenosaunee (a confederation of several other Iroquois nations). So even if they do speak a related language they are not necessarily allies. Adam Bishop (talk) 12:35, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
I don't understand the premise. The first peoples of the Americas were normal people with normal desires and hangups and they built groups with changing priorities and alliances and rivalries just like any others in the world. The UK has fought both with and against the USA and with and against France - language has little to do with it. Interpreters have always existed; people figure things out if there is a will to do so. Matt Deres (talk) 15:08, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
You know how China is 1 big country. It's been like that for some 2200 years. Before that, they were like Native Americans, consisting of multiple tribes. But there was a Huangdi who was able to unite all Chinese tribes into 1 big nation. Native Americans never did that. And not all Chinese speak the same language today. Heh. 67.175.224.138 (talk) 01:57, 13 November 2018 (UTC).
67.175.224.138 -- the pre-1492 distribution of the Algonquian languages was broad enough to contain any number of antagonistic relationships within it. By the way, in certain areas of inland South America "Almost every individual knows fluently three, four, or more languages"[1]... -- AnonMoos (talk) 15:16, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

"if they speak the same broad language or different"

You may want to consult the List of language families. We have articles on (from most speakers to less speakers): Quechuan languages, Mayan languages, Tupian languages, Aymaran languages, Uto-Aztecan languages, Oto-Manguean languages, Arawakan languages, Chibchan languages, Totonacan languages, Araucanian languages, Algic languages, Na-Dene languages, Misumalpan languages, Mixe–Zoque languages, Choco languages, Eskimo–Aleut languages, Jivaroan languages, Cariban languages, Matacoan languages, Guaicuruan languages, Jê languages, Pano-Tacanan languages, Siouan languages, Yanomaman languages, Tucanoan languages, Barbacoan languages, Mascoian languages, Piaroa–Saliban languages, Witotoan languages, Muskogean languages, Iroquoian languages, Keres language, Cahuapanan languages, Hokan languages, Tanoan languages, Esmeralda–Yaruroan languages, Zamucoan languages, Arawan languages, Peba–Yaguan languages, Chimane language, Penutian languages, Macro-Puinavean languages, Nadahup languages, Chapacuran languages, Salishan languages, Maxakalían languages, Uru–Chipaya languages, Nambikwaran languages, Wakashan languages, Mura language, Jicaquean languages, Zaparoan languages, Arutani–Sape languages, Caddoan languages, Yok-Utian languages, Alacalufan languages, Chimakuan languages, Katembri–Taruma languages, Katukinan languages, Lule–Vilela languages, Yabutian languages, Wintuan languages, Tiniguan languages, Yuki–Wappo languages (extinct), Catacaoan languages (extinct), Charruan languages (extinct), Chimuan languages (extinct), Chonan languages (extinct), Hibito–Cholon languages (extinct), Jirajaran languages (extinct), Lencan languages (extinct), Otomákoan languages (extinct), Tequiraca–Canichana languages (extinct), Timotean languages (extinct), and Xincan languages (extinct). The Americas have always been linguistically diverse. Dimadick (talk) 20:26, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Buddhist Monk[edit]

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen

I have read many years ago about a Buddhist monk who excessively self-tortured himself and apparently went so far that he even hanged at least a part of his (while he was still alive!) innards on a tree "to let them dry". This shocked most of the eyewitnesses of the time. I do not recall the name of the man, does someone of you know the monk`s name?

Thank you for your answers--2A02:1205:505D:1BB0:8CC0:8297:EFBC:CD56 (talk) 13:55, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

A quick search only brought up the practice of Kaihōgyō by Japanese Tendai monks, which entails a thousand day hike around Mount Hiei. Not mentioned in our article but quoted by several sources is that those who drop-out "must commit suicide by hanging or disembowelment". [2] Alansplodge (talk) 14:55, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
There are a few bigger "believe communities" but each shrine, monastery or school teaches its own interpretation of Buddhism. Actually most religions have big local distinctions, even if they have an organizational center and Headmaster claiming a region or more bound to his interpretation. Dalai Lama is especially interesting for your Question because some Dalai Lamas in the past where horrible bloody dictators and warlords. Famous Vlad the Impaler was officially an orthodox Christian that allegedly had a horrible idea how to act as the shepherd of his subjects, christian rulers commonly strive to be. --Kharon (talk) 17:21, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
Nitpicking: Vlad the Impaler was a Catholic, and he's today remembered as a great historical figure in Romania since he achived major victories over the Ottomans, who weren't exactly opposed to impaling victims themselves. What earned him the notoriety was probably that he used the same gruesome tactics in Transylvania in the war for the Hungarian throne, as impaling was back then in that area considered something mostly for infidels/heretics only. 93.136.83.252 (talk) 00:53, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
[citation needed] Vlad the Impaler#Imprisonment in Hungary suggests he may have converted to Catholicism after his imprisonment in Hungary before his third rule which was after he had already impaled a bunch of people. He was definitely friendly and received the support of Catholics for a long time e.g. our article says he claimed he broke peace with the sultan "for the preservation of Christianity and the strengthening of the Catholic faith". I'm not sure if it's clear that he converted, I'm having trouble finding good RS because a lot of stuff is talking about his brother and the rest is non RS. Some of the non RS say he definitely converted because his marriage (I presume to a Catholic) was documented [3]. On the other hand some other often more wacky sources say stuff like it's all a lie by the Catholics or some such to defame our great Orthodox hero, or that he was born Catholic and converted to Orthodox and then converted back, or simply that was an evil Catholic so shouldn't be an Orthodox hero (but often don't say if he was Catholic for life). E.g. [4] or [5] or the 2nd reply in the Quora thread. Well even some of the 'converted to Catholicism' ones are like that e.g. [6], one reason I'm reluctant to entirely trust all this converted stuff. Our article claims without a direct source that Vlad II Dracul was Orthodox. Nil Einne (talk) 19:11, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
Christian rulers commonly strive to be the shepherds of their subjects? Exactly which alternate universe's history are you taking that idea from? --Khajidha (talk) 12:29, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
What you describe sounds like an extreme form of Sokushinbutsu. That article and its references may be of use to you. Wymspen (talk) 17:30, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Buddha/Zarathustra Works[edit]

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen

I am looking for a full online version of the Zend-Avesta, the holy book of Zarathustra and the original words (or the clostest possible) of Buddha. I speak some German and Spanish, so online versions in these languages would not be difficult for me to read. I have searched with the help of Google, but was unable to find a satisfying result.

Thank you very much for your answers--2A02:1205:505D:1BB0:8CC0:8297:EFBC:CD56 (talk) 14:01, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

Some parts of the Sutta Pitaka of the Pali Canon presumably fairly closely reflect the thinking of the Buddha and his personal disciples. AnonMoos (talk) 15:35, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
Here's one [7]. 86.157.229.93 (talk) 16:06, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
And another [8]. 86.157.229.93 (talk) 16:17, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

November 12[edit]

Pre-World War I election maps[edit]

I know that the English Wikipedia has maps of all U.S. presidential elections (including those from before World War I) and that the German Wikipedia has maps of pre-World War I Imperial German Reichstag elections. However, are there any other maps of pre-World War I elections on Wikipedia? If so, where and for which elections? Futurist110 (talk) 23:55, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

We have quite a lot of election maps (commons:Category:Election maps by country), although I'm not sure there's a good way to find the ones that have pre-WWI maps aside from clicking on all of them individually. (I know there are pre-WWI maps for Canada, at least.) Adam Bishop (talk) 01:02, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
Thank you very much! Indeed, your link here is very helpful to me and thus I thank you for posting it here. Futurist110 (talk) 03:55, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

November 13[edit]

US Democratic Party primaries and midterm elections 2018 results by counties[edit]

Other than CNN, MSNBC, New York Times and Washington Post, are there any other websites that shows the following primaries and midterm elections:

Florida Democratic Party gubernatorial primary, Georgia Democratic Party gubernatorial primary, Maryland Democratic Party gubernatorial primary, Idaho Democratic Party gubernatorial primary, New York Democratic Party gubernatorial primary, Vermont Democratic Party gubernatorial primary and Iowa Democratic Party gubernatorial primary and Texas US Senate election, 2018 between Beto O'Rourke and Ted Cruz, Wisconsin US Senate election, 2018 between Tammy Baldwin and Leah Vukmir, Florida gubernatorial election, 2018; Georgia gubernatorial election, 2018; Maryland gubernatorial election, 2018; Vermont gubernatorial election, 2018; and Idaho gubernatorial election, 2018? I want to see which counties they got the most votes from. Also, I am interested in these races and primaries because most of the contenders participating in these events were endorsed by Our Revolution. Please and thank you. Donmust90 (talk) 00:58, 13 November 2018 (UTC)Donmust90Donmust90 (talk) 00:58, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

@Donmust90: I suggest going to the Secretary of State's website for each state you are interested in. Most should have the per-county vote information you are interested in. For example, here is a page for the Florida election data: [9]. The file it gives you is a text file, you can see the democratic governor results per county. RudolfRed (talk) 01:42, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

Prosperity theology in Islam and Judaism[edit]

Has anything similar to prosperity theology ever developed within Islam and Judaism? 73.239.223.56 (talk · contribs)

It sounds like you're talking about Predestination and Predestination in Islam. This item[10] says it is not accepted in Judaism. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:49, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
No they'd mean something like Prosperity theology. Another weird thing Trump seems to espouse but known mainly in South Korea and some African nations I believe. Dmcq (talk) 11:22, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
Really? I would say it's huge in the US. Any televangelist with a megachurch is a proponent of the Prosperity Gospel. Predestination is a fairly different thing, although it can be related (if you think you're predestined to be rich). Adam Bishop (talk) 14:40, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
Yeah you see lots of media reports e.g. [11] [12] [13] as well as this well known John Oliver segment [14] which is discussed somewhat in this article Our Lady of Perpetual Exemption. I assume the in relative terms, they're a tiny percentage of American christians but I don't know if there's anywhere that isn't true. Nil Einne (talk) 15:33, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
Is one of the theories of Calvinism that you can tell whether someone is one of "the elect" by how well they're doing? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:03, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
Not at all; this would have broken down in Calvin's lifetime, as many early Calvinist clergymen were sent to France, executed as heretics, and later celebrated as martyrs. In more recent centuries, it wouldn't make much sense, as various incompatible figures (early LDS leaders like Brigham Young, leaders of oneness Pentecostal megachurches, atheists who are really wise investors, etc.) sometimes do really well, and as their theologies are absolutely irreconcilable with Calvinism (plurality of gods, Jesus-only unitarianism, and non-theism, respectively, each of which rejects Calvinist theology of God and vice versa), "doing well = elect" breaks down because Calvinists and any of the others can't both be right. Nyttend (talk) 01:22, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
I see various mentions of Islamic prosperity theology [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] (see [20] for info on the organisation discussed) but I don't think these sources are really using prosperity theology the same way. What they seem to be referring to are proponents of capitalism and economic advancement from an Islamic POV or that there's nothing wrong with being prosperous or it's even nobel for it to be a goal. So there may be some aspects which are very similar. But from what I can tell, they don't include much the elements which give prosperity theology a bad name i.e. the people will be blessed if they give the rich preacher money to buy their 4th jet or buy a larger mansion aspect. Possibly they would include some of the other criticised aspects e.g. accumulate a house and other possessions even if you can't afford it. Note that as I understand it, zakat generally recognises a niṣāb or minimum level of wealth before it's expected, and while there's obviously no agreement on the amount this is, I presume it means there tends to be a difference with tithing among prosperity theology proponents who AFAIK often asked for tithes regardless of how poor the people are teaching it will benefit them in the long run due to god's blessings. Nil Einne (talk) 17:42, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
The central idea of prosperity theology is the idea that the earthly evidence of whether or not you are properly obeying God is your own earthly prosperity; that is if you are following God's law, the rewards will be evident because you're prosperous; if you are not, God will punish you by making you less prosperous; if you aren't prosperous it must be because you aren't following God's law close enough. In the Judeo-Christian tradition, there's some criticism of this in the text of the Bible, i.e. the Book of Job, one of the themes of which is that you can't use your situation on earth as a judgement of your place in heaven; whether or not you are prosperous or not isn't really rooted in whether you are Godly enough. I'm not as familiar with Islamic tradition on this. --Jayron32 17:50, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

Camel and needle's eye[edit]

Isn't there a New Testament text which says that it easier for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle [the narrow gate in Jerusalem] than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God? 2A02:C7D:CAA6:A200:4471:4D17:DD5C:D292 (talk) 18:52, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
There is: Matthew 19 comes to mind, it's also in Mark and Luke IIRC. Matthew 19 also says "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth...instead store up treasures in Heaven" --Jayron32 18:56, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
The thing about the gate in Jerusalem is just some nonsense dreamed up by Prosperity theologians (in its most absurd form, the reasoning is that if a camel can fit through it, a man easily could, so rich men can easily get into heaven). The parable is Jesus and the rich young man. Adam Bishop (talk) 22:51, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
The standard interpretation taught to me at school (Methodist, though with a Baptist RE teacher) was that it was almost impossible for a camel to fit through this supposed imaginatively named gate, and thus it would be very difficult (though not impossible) for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. I've also read a suggestion (which I can not corroborate, though it makes a lot of sense to me) that the word 'camel' (supposedly kamelos in some Greek original) was an erroneous reading of 'cord' (supposedly kemilos – Koine Greek-literate editor needed to confirm or refute!): the analogy of trying to thread a cord through a needle's eye seems much more appropriate. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 00:33, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
I'm not buying it. The literal interpretation of an actual camel and an actual needle is much more in line with Jesus' penchant for hyperbole (i.e. remove the plank from your own eye) to drive home a point, and his emphasis on the need of his followers to abandon all of their earthly connections, including wealth, family, obligations (let the dead bury the dead, etc.) in order to follow him completely seems more internally consistent. The whole "needle gate" thing feels like bullshit worked in later to make it feel more attractive a belief system to potential converts, but such an interpretation seems out of character with the rest of the message of the synoptic gospels. I've heard such interpretations as well, however I've never seen evidence that the "eye of the needle" gate was a thing recorded outside of such a supposed text. It just has the feel of an ex-post-facto thing. --Jayron32 00:46, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Aaand I now see in the Eye of a needle article that Cyril of Alexandria asserted the camel/cord theory in the 5th Century AD, though with different spellings to what I have doubtless mis-remembered :-).
I think we have to be very careful in arguing the interpretation of Jesus' supposed words. There are no contemporaneous records of them, and those we know of seem to have been orally transmitted and only collated in writing some decades after his death, in documents that the "gospels" apparently drew on while adding imaginative narrative framing. There's a lot of scope there for accidental rephrasings and mistranslations: did the 1st-century Aramaic or Koine Greek (depending on his original auditors) word he used really mean the same as "beam" or "plank" in modern English. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.218.14.42 (talk) 00:54, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
In which context are we discussing: the one of theology or the one of history? The pursuits have different methods and different intents, so we first need to know which context we are discussing from. --Jayron32 13:20, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

[unindent] St. Hilary of Poitiers interprets it figuratively: But in the beginning of our book, we have suggested that the pagans are signified by the camel under the guise of John's [the Baptist's] clothing...the barbarity of the pagans is being tamed to obey heavenly instruction. They are entering the very narrow way of the kingdom of heaven, namely, the "needle", which is the preaching of the new Word. [Page 207 of OCLC 861793400.] In the confessional Protestant context in which my life has always been spent, the passage has been taken literally: the rich have absolutely no way to enter by themselves (just as the camel has absolutely no way to go through a needle), and because period Judaism expected the rich to have the best chance of salvation (as they could afford ritual purity, all the sacrifices, etc., unlike the poorer classes), this implies that nobody can live purely enough to reach heaven. Jesus is therefore interpreted as indicating that reaching heaven depends on God's action, i.e. imputed righteousness is necessary. Nyttend (talk) 01:11, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Middle Age calendars[edit]

Hello,

The History of calendars has a page from the Bedford psalter. Each day here and in and other Middle Age calendars shows five columns, the first contains some figures, then it's a letter for the day of the week from A to G, the count down to calendae, nones and idae, with their abbr. : nn, ide, kl in col. 4, and at last the feasts and octaves. What do those figures in the first col. mean ?

An example of sequence in Jan. (Fecamp psalter) is : 3, 0, 11, 0, 19, 8, 0, 16, 5, 0, 8, 2, 0, 10, 0, 18, 7, 0, 15, 4, 0, 12, 1, 0, 9, 0, 17, 6, 0, 13, 3. Thank you for an advice, even if it's only fun. --methodood (talk) 16:05, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

See This video. They are Golden numbers, used to calculate the date of Easter in any given year. --Jayron</sp1an>32 16:17, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
If you find "xiij" and "xiiij" confusing, see J#History. Nyttend (talk) 00:35, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
The lunar month will start January date with the 1 one year, the date with the 2 the next and so on till 19 then 1 the year after that. Of course that's not a guarantee, even at the place and time the Golden number is most accurate small eyesight differences or good vs. fair humidity for a cloudless night of that calendar date could be the difference between the golden number being on the right day or not. The golden number doesn't work anymore though because it's a very simple calendar that's too slow and after over 20,000 lunar months without "unleap" days it's about 0 months and 4.X days late. For comparison the youngest naked eye Moon was 0.6472 days old with extreme eyesight (only naked eye counts for religious calendars), 2 day old crescents are easy if not too high latitude and 3 day old crescents are naked eye in the middle of the day at sea level even in the humid East US just by hiding the Sun with your hand. Only 2.35 days difference so over 4 days error is huge. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:41, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

November 15[edit]

Why did Hungary remain a kingdom (regency) after the end of World War I?[edit]

Why did Hungary remain a kingdom--or regency--after the end of World War I (as in, after Bela Kun's Communist regime in Hungary was overthrown)? Futurist110 (talk) 03:01, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Specifically, why didn't Hungary become a republic after the fall of Communism in 1919 like it did after the fall of Communism in 1989? Futurist110 (talk) 03:13, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Just a guess, but after three short-lived republics rising and falling within a single year (the First Hungarian Republic, the Hungarian Soviet Republic, and a days-long restoration of the First Republic), with their accompanying Red Terror, White Terror and Romanian occupation, I should think that anything savouring of boring old Habsburg stability must have sounded pretty good. --Antiquary (talk) 13:27, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
The answer is that the Kingdom of Hungary provided Horthy with the veneer of legitimacy for what was otherwise a a facist state. It's pretty much analogous to Francoist Spain; as Franco always claimed to be running the Monarchy in the name of a king who would later be restored, so did Horthy. As you can see at Kingdom of Hungary (1920–1946), the initial situation was that the Allies refused to allow Charles to claim the throne when the monarchy was declared by Horthy et. al. Horthy was merely acting as regent till the politics became more friendly towards restoring the King. When Charles died in 1922, the nominal heir was Otto von Habsburg, a 9-year old, so Horthy just kept being regent, as they wouldn't install a 9-year old to rule. By the time Otto was old enough, there were significant international political hurdles towards him claiming the Hungarian throne; mostly due to the fact that a claim to either the Austrian Imperial Crown or the Hungarian Regnal Crown could be seen as a claim to the entirety of the empire (whether the crowns were even capable of being legally divided was complex). If he were claiming to being restored to the prior crowns, well that means bringing back the prior constitutions which would have created a whole lot of headaches. If he were claiming to being asked to be named king to an entirely different state, that created all new constitutional headaches. As to why Otto didn't just accept the throne of Hungary, I'm not sure he was particularly interested. He really wanted to restore the Austrian monarchy, not just to "Be king of somewhere" but "Be Emperor of Austria". He was directly offered the throne of Spain by Franco, a post he refused because he wasn't much interested in Spanish politics. Of course by that time it was all pointless to answer our question, Hungary became a republic for good after WWII. --Jayron32 16:25, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Why are Russian Jews by far the least fertile ethnic group in Russia?[edit]

Based on the data here: Demographics_of_Russia#Median_age_and_fertility -- Russian Jews are by far the least fertile ethnic group in Russia. My question is this--why exactly is this the case? Futurist110 (talk) 03:20, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

I actually think you have the answer and are looking for the question. Once we know that Jews in Russian have the least amount of childs in a household, that is itself an answer. This is like asking, once we know someone is a virgin, why is so and so a virgin. We already have the conclusions. 67.175.224.138 (talk) 04:22, 15 November 2018 (UTC).
I mean why exactly do Russian Jews have the least amount of children among all of the ethnic groups in Russia. There has to be some reason(s) for this. Futurist110 (talk) 05:09, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Maybe because they don't want as many? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:35, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
But why? Futurist110 (talk) 07:12, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Why not?Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:55, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
That's not really a useful answer, and seems needlessly abrupt. The null hypothesis would presumably be that all ethnicities are equally fertile (or as near to that as random variation would allow). If a particular group is notably different in this respect, then there is presumably a reason. And if the immediate reason is "they don't want as many", then there is presumably a reason for that too, whether cultural or geographic or whatever. I don't see anything wrong with someoneone wandering why? Iapetus (talk) 09:56, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
The comment by Шурбур below seems a reasonable possibility. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:29, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Median age: 61.1. This will make it slightly hard to give birth. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 06:11, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
That high median age is a result of them having few babies, though. Futurist110 (talk) 07:12, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
How does it compare with childbirth rates in other countries? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:55, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Well, South Korea's total fertility rate is probably lower. Futurist110 (talk) 08:08, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
I think if fertility of 1 ethnic group differs by country, that would be more meaningful. For example, aren't fertility of Jews in Russia going to be the same for other countries? 67.175.224.138 (talk) 12:49, 15 November 2018 (UTC).
  • Jewish women are the most urbanized (98 %) and educated (65 % having a higher education) in Russia. Шурбур (talk) 08:09, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Is this data from the 2002 or 2010 Russian census? Also, which ethnic groups in Russia are the next most urbanized and educated? Futurist110 (talk) 21:14, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
  • The data are from the 2010 census. It will be more convenient to compare similar social groups.

Children per 1000 women 15+

total urban 1328

graduate/postgr 1178
secondary 1333
primary 1927

total rural 1876

graduate/postgr 1457
secondary 1827
primary 2702

Russians 1405

graduate/postgr 1186
secondary 1413
primary 2105

Jews 1264

graduate/postgr 1225
secondary 1324
primary 1714

One may then speculate that Russian graduates were oppressed more in the SU though. Шурбур (talk) 08:48, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

An awful lot of Russian Jews emigrated, some to Israel, some via Israel and some elsewhere, after the collapse of Communism. 1990s Post-Soviet aliyah has some information on this. I can't lay my hands on RS but I've definitely heard that those who chose to stay behind had an older demographic. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 13:10, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

What exactly is RS? Also, it is worth noting that Russian Jews were in demographic decline ever since the 1960s (the exodus of Jews from the Soviet Union only started in the 1970s on a large scale). Futurist110 (talk) 21:15, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
What exactly is RS? See Wikipedia:RS. Alansplodge (talk) 21:43, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Thanks! Futurist110 (talk) 22:31, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Yes there was a similar phase with former german emigrants in russia who where invited back to West-Germany in the 1980-1990 with a simmilar result. It was mostly young people who used this and the older mostly prefered to stay in russia. So i guess that ethnic group with german roots showed a similar low reproduction rate after that. --Kharon (talk) 21:27, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
The data in my link above (Demographics_of_Russia#Median_age_and_fertility) shows that Russian Germans were, on average, much younger and much more fertile than Russian Jews were in 2002. Futurist110 (talk) 22:30, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Post-Soviet Jewish Demographic Dynamics: An Analysis of Recent Data [Revised as of October 9, 2018] confirms that mass migration to Western Europe, North America and particularly Israel is the major factor.
I'll take a look at this link. I've read some of what Mark Tolts wrote before and I wonder if I'll find any new information in this article. Futurist110 (talk) 22:30, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
In addition, Why Fertility Levels Vary between Urban and Rural Areas? says (quoting research in Finland): "For many countries, fertility levels tend to differ by education level, with the lowest for university educated individuals and the highest for individuals with only compulsory education".
Makes sense considering that studying at a university takes up a lot of one's time and one's money--leaving less time and money available for child-rearing. Futurist110 (talk) 22:30, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
A History of the Jewish Community in Russia (and former USSR) by Igal Lapidus says: "Russian Jewry is almost exclusively urbanized... Today, Jews are integrated into most sectors of Russian society and economy, and their level of education and standard of living are higher than those prevalent in the general population".
Alansplodge (talk) 22:18, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
One would think that the greater standard of living (and possibly wealth) of Russian Jews would allow them to have more rather than less children, though. Futurist110 (talk) 22:30, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Allowing them to doesn't mean they want to. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:46, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Indeed. As a general trend in Demography, increased wealth in a society usually results in people having fewer children, because:
(a) fewer children will die (because of their society's improved healthcare) so they don't have to have more to offset such anticipated deaths;
(b) their personal wealth will to some extent offset the need to have their children (grandchildren, etc.) support them in their old age, so they need fewer;
(c) the financial support measures characteristic of wealthier societies (personal and state pensions, other welfare services) similarly offset the need for support by offspring; and
(d) the cost of raising each individual child becomes relatively greater.
In a rapidly developing, previously impoverished society, (a) can lead to the Demographic trap because people's expectations lag behind rapid improvements in healthcare, until the Demographic transition has matured. This however does not apply to the society and ethnic group which you (Futurist110) are considering.
As a purely personal conjecture, I would hazard that the history of persecution of Jews in Russia until quite recent times (e.g. within my own lifetime) might discourage people from having children who would run the risk of suffering its potential renewal. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.218.14.42 (talk) 00:15, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

U.S. law question - hotels.[edit]

Are hotels in the U.S. allowed to charge price based by country of origin. So if the Euro dollar is worth more than the American dollar, can make it more expensive base price, and if came from a 3rd world country, base cheaper price. I know the computers can analyze formulas, but my question is if it's legal. We already know that universities can do that, International students pay a higher tuition. 67.175.224.138 (talk) 04:16, 15 November 2018 (UTC).

National origin discrimination is illegal in the United States. State universities typically charge all out-of-state students a higher tuition (since these are funded primarily by taxes paid by state residents), which includes international students. Since that policy is based on state of residence and not country of origin, it's fine. Someguy1221 (talk) 05:08, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, I thought International students pay an even-higher base tuition than out-of-state tuition. So as far as I know, so it's 3-levels of prices: in state, out of state, and International. And some 2-year colleges in a city, have a 4-level tuition: in city, outside of city but in state, out of state but in country, and out of country. So, if colleges/universities can do it, why not hotels? Your comment on national-origin discrimination, I already know it's true in terms of hiring someone, and selling houses to someone. 67.175.224.138 (talk) 12:45, 15 November 2018 (UTC).
"So, if colleges/universities can do it, why not hotels?" Hotels are not usually supported by the taxes of residents, unlike public colleges. --Xuxl (talk) 14:09, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
National origin discrimination is generally prohibited under the Civil Rights Act of 1964 for public accommodations (and employment, programs or activities which receive federal funds and some others) which would include hotels etc. It's also covered under several other areas of federal law. However I'm fairly sure there are areas which the CRA and other laws do not cover. I'm not sure if it's even tested if the CRA applies to providers of services or products over the internet for example. It has been tested for the ADA [21] [22] but the definition of public accommodations is wider there. I think the case for the CRA is a lot less clear [23] [24] [25]. The last link may be of particular interest since it seems to mention Airbnb. State law may cover additional things but of course, that wouldn't necessarily be US wide (unless every jurisdiction has such laws). BTW, about education I believe it's complicated. If the educational institution receives federal funds then the CRA would likely apply. Perhaps in some cases it may be a public accommodation but I'm not convinced it's so clear cut if the educational institute receives zero federal funds, especially again I suspect, online only educational institutions. Note that many legal challenges to things like affirmative action have been based on the Equal Protection Clause which will not apply to non citizens although AFAIK most of these have been to institutions who receive federal funds anyway. These may be of interest Regents of the Univ. of Cal. v. Bakke Grutter v. Bollinger [26] [27] [[28]] [29] [30]. Note that although the CRA also applies to schools (and I'm not sure what the definition of schools is) this primarily relates to segregation. Nil Einne (talk) 16:34, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Something to keep in mind about the Fourteenth Amendment: "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:42, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Sorry, you're right on that. However that only directly applies to government/public universities. For private ones, the requirements are AFAIK held to come from equal protection clause via the CRA (or otherwise via the reception of government funds, federal or state) [31] [32]. For institutions who chose not to receive such funds (which is very rare but is possible), it's again not clear to me that the CRA or other areas of law will apply especially for internet only institutions. I'd also note that while these may apply to US citizens and lawful permanent residents, I'm not convinced there's case law on how it interacts with non citizens who are not lawful permanent residents even those lawfully in the US, especially those with F visas. While you likely still couldn't discriminate based on national origin per se, it's possible a compelling could be made that discrimination based solely on long term residency status (rather than national origin) could be made, since there's no guarantee they could work in the US after graduation e.g. [33]. The debates surrounding affirmative action show that it's far from simple. Some of the earlier sources also reflect such complexity even where national origin or race does directly arise. The Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 AFAIK mostly only affects employment. Nil Einne (talk) 17:29, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Yes, the situation with colleges and universities gets trickier, perhaps in part because there is no constitutional right to go to any particular college. There are generally more applicants than there are openings, and that's where affirmative action issues arise. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:44, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Let’s get back to what was asked about... hotels. The price of a hotel room can fluctuate wildly... depending on demand. The same room can be very expensive one month, and reasonably cheap the next. Even the day of the week when you want to reserve the room can impact pricing. Blueboar (talk) 19:22, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
    • Happens all the time and is generally legal. See Price discrimination. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:20, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
      • I heard that some places discriminate prices on-line by what operating system you're using, that Mac users are more likely to be richer than Windows users and therefore willing to pay more. The only example I was told is airline companies. 67.175.224.138 (talk) 21:56, 15 November 2018 (UTC).
    • Yes but the fact remains, all evidence suggests they cannot normally do to for reasons of national origin. To do so runs a strong risk of violating the CRA. This suggests no decent US hotel is going to openly admit to doing so. Note however it's likely to be less clear cut for currency conversions. If a guest chooses to pay in Euro, they could potentially offer a terrible rate if they wanted to. There is probably still some risk of national origin discrimination, but it could be reduced by smart management, for example, making sure you always advertise and advise customs of both prices. Also As the Trivago person likes to say, different prices may be advertised in different places however the reasoning would generally have to be for reasons besides national origin. I'm suspect the case is a lot less clear cutWhile I'm not familiar with the case law, there is probably some small risk if someone advertises a different price in a German travel magazine than they do in US radio advertisement. But by the same token,At a minimum I strongly suspect any competent management team is going to say they did so because of the specific audiences of the different venues, which had nothing to do with national origin (or race etc). Nil Einne (talk) 02:50, 16 November 2018 (UTC)17:07, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
      • BTW, there's also the complexity of how the CRA interacts with people who aren't US citizens or permanent residents and are currently located outside the US. But still, it seems a risky strategy considering you could also affect US citizens. On a related note, this specifically notes that airlines can't practice price discrimination for reasons of national origin [34]. Nil Einne (talk) 03:13, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
  • In my experience, hotels quote a room rate based on the dates you want to stay and the type of room you prefer before they have any information about your identity. What are they going to do, say "I'm sorry, but we charge Lithuanians 11% more" when they find out who you are? As for foreign exchange rates, U.S. hotels normally accept payment in U.S. dollars. Exchange of foreign currency is handled either by credit card processors or those currency exchange booths you see at airports. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 03:49, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
    • Don't credit cards have an bank with country of origin? For on-line pays. Back in 2008, the Euro dollar was worth so more more than the American dollar, it was actually cheaper for people in England to do Christmas shopping in the U.S. That is, fly to the U.S., spend some nights at the hotel, and Christmas shop, fly back to England. So imo a way around it is to pay cash - it's like you have to pre-trade the Euro dollars for American dollars. 67.175.224.138 (talk) 05:29, 16 November 2018 (UTC).
Are you referring to Eurodollars, or just to foreign currency such as Euros and pounds sterling? Are prices so much cheaper in Chicago that people fly there to shop and save? I would have thought that a customer would need to be spending tens of thousands of dollars to be able to make a saving. Don't most visitors to America spend in American dollars? Dbfirs 07:34, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
As mentioned above, US hotels can't charge guests different rates due to their nationality. However, there is no requirement that they charge the same rate in every currency. A US hotel will usually offer the best rate in US dollars (regardless of the nationality of the customer). If they allow guests to pay in any other currency, there may be a service charge or other fee applied. This nominally covers the cost of the currency conversion for the hotel, but in some cases it may be quite large. If you have to pay in a foreign currency, then it is generally best to use a credit card and have the credit card company determine the conversion rate. If the hotel offers an option to pay directly in a foreign currency either when booking or at checkout (this isn't very common in the US, though it is fairly common in Europe), then it is often the case that they are giving you a pretty terrible conversion rate. Dragons flight (talk) 10:11, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
Just to be clear, if there is a U.S. Hotel that accepts payment in Euros, they aren't charging you a higher rate to stay in the room; they are charging you for two services: first as a hotel and secondly as a foreign currency exchange. The fees for the second service may raise the cost of your stay, but you still pay the same amount for the room itself. Also, they don't care about your country of origin. You could be traveling from the EU and as long as you pay in dollars, you pay the same rate as Americans do. An American paying in Euros would also have the same surcharges on their stay as European would. --Jayron32 17:45, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
However, although they can probably justify a fairly high fee, while IANAL and this isn't legal advice I wouldn't say there is zero risk if it's too high depending on lots of factors like those I mentioned earlier. More so in the era before smart phones as now even most customers with poor maths and memories can instantly compare the rate the hotel is offering with that their bank will offer. If they can't justify why they charged such a fee, the courts may consider that they're really just trying to discriminate against people because of their national origin. A loosely related example is that banning customers or employees from speaking languages besides English (let alone a specific language) without a good reason can be problematic even though the law doesn't explicitly deal with language. Even though it affects people whatever their race, ethnicity or national origin, it disproportionately affects people based on these factors [35]. There's a difference in that speaking in English may be more difficult or uncomfortable for some people but most people should be able to easily either use their banks's conversion or use a money changer but it will ultimately come down to the details. Noting also that the corollary, requiring someone is able to speak some language if there's no reason it's of benefit in the job can likewise be problematic, also requiring English fluency if it isn't required. [36] Nil Einne (talk) 17:37, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

new Internet cat meme[edit]

A couple months ago, I discovered a new Internet cat meme on YouTube. The cat's name is Ollie. He resides in the United Kingdom. He's also been proclaimed "The Polite Cat", due to his human-like facial expression. What can you tell me about Ollie the Polite Cat? (And shouldn't there be an article about him?)142.255.69.73 (talk) 12:00, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

The consensus seems to be that this is just a cat with a photoshopped expression. There are articles about it (e.g. [37]), but thankfully not on Wikipedia.--Shantavira|feed me 12:40, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Wikipedia isn't Know Your Meme. There likely isn't enough notability to have an entry here. †dismas†|(talk) 21:32, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
See Media Hype. Many just live for a few days - like Tamagotchis... --Kharon (talk) 21:36, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
You may wish to check Ollie the Polite Cat out on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Reddit, Tumblr and Imgur. On those social media pages, you may find more about Ollie the Polite Cat. Hopefully, there may be enough information to create an article on Wikipedia.2604:2000:7104:2F00:D863:4B1F:1999:7426 (talk) 03:55, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
None of those social media platforms is a reliable source for establishing the notability of a topic on Wikipedia. Not a single one of them. No matter how much you hope, IP editor, no acceptable article can be built on such a flimsy basis. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 04:35, 16 November 2018 (UTC)


November 16[edit]

Geography + language[edit]

When it comes to this map ([38]), is there any way to know which subsaharan language on the above map has the largest geographic distribution? If so, are there any citations corroborating this? At first glance, Somali looks the largest, but I'm not sure. HUZIXIISD (talk) 04:41, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

There are ways to calculate the areas covered by those different colored splotches, but the greater question is "do those colored splotches represent what you think they do, or what they purport to". For example, when defining "geographic distribution", how do you define if an "area" speaks a "language"? Do you mean the people who live in an area? What defines such an area? What about areas with multiple languages spoken in an interspersed area? There are places on that map that are essentially unpopulated; no one lives there. Why are those colored in? How can they "speak a language" if there is no one there to speak it? A much better map would be a heat map that shows each language, displaying both the location of the speakers and the number of speakers there. --Jayron32 17:52, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Country of largest area with only 1 time zone[edit]

Between the countries that are at only one time zone (and that they are at the time zone they should be, unlike as some example greenland that is at 5 time zones but all those areas to a single one, -3) what is the country with biggest area?201.9.248.95 (talk) 15:52, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Cross referencing List_of_time_zones_by_country with List of countries and dependencies by area yields India which only has one time zone as the winner. I don't know if that fits your "at the time zone they should be" criteria though. EniaNey 16:06, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
China is the 3rd/4th largest country in the world by area (depending on how you define "area" and "largest" and "china"), and all of the larger countries (The U.S., Canada, and Russia) have multiple time zones, whereas all of China is at UTC+08:00. So the answer to the question "What is the largest single time zone country in the world" is "China" --Jayron32 16:08, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
yes... If the question is “What is the largest country to have one single time zone?, then the answer is China. If the question is “What is the largest country with all of its area falling within a single time zone... without ignoring the time zoning of surrounding nations... I think the answer is Algeria. Blueboar (talk) 16:24, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
Well, it depends on what you mean by "should be". There is no Time Zone Authority that mandates time zones, every sovereign state sets its own clocks however the heck it wants to. So there is no "rule" to "ignore.", so there is no "should be" If, in defining "time zone", we just mean "the 15 degree slice of the Earth whose international waters are defined as at a certain time zone", For ANY country which is wider than 15 degrees longitude, it would be impossible to meet the definition the OP laid out. It would also be impossible for countries smaller than 15 degrees longitude which were offset enough to bridge two of those 15 degree zones (since that country would have part of its territory outside of the defined 15 degree "time zone"). That leaves us with some pretty small countries. If the OP's arcane definition can be defined to mean "largest country wholly within the defined 15 degree slices of the earth that nominally define the Time Zones", then Algeria doesn't work either; it crosses between the UTC 0 and UTC +1 time zone bands, and actually lies mostly in the WRONG band (Algeria sets its time to UTC +1, but most of its territory is in the UTC 0 band, see map at List of UTC time offsets). Given what I think is the new criteria, and eyeballing the map in the above article, I think the largest single-time-zone country wholly within the correct colored band (that is, unlike the Greenland example the OP used as a disqualifier) on that map is Zimbabwe, which is wholly within the correct band, (UTC +2). All other countries which are larger seem to "cross" multiple bands. --Jayron32 17:12, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
The question "largest country wholly within the defined 15 degree slices of the earth that nominally define the Time Zones", is the real question I wanted to ask. Sorry if I wanst precise enought.201.9.248.95 (talk) 18:40, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
Cool. In that case, I think "Zimbabwe" is the right answer. It's a question, however, that maybe doesn't have a lot of significance. Because the time zones taper to nothing at the poles, that raises the problem that countries in the higher latitudes are basically screwed by compared to those near the equator. Greenland, for example, is about 1100 kilometers across. At the equator, a degree is about 111 kilometers. 111*15 = 1665 km, a space Greenland could COMFORTABLY fit in. The only reason it crosses 5 time zones is that at it's northerly location, the size of a degree of longitude at 77 degrees latitude (about the widest part of Greenland) is only about 25 kilometers across, or less than 1/5 the size of at the equator or exactly why Greenland crosses 5 time zones. See here for calculations regarding the size of a degree of longitude. --Jayron32 19:07, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
I'm not entirely sure whether the OP's clarification is completely clear. There's no reason a time zone has to be in hourly offset, and while most are, not every extant timezone is an hourly offset. While I personally think non hour offsets are crazy, I'm not sure you can say they're more natural or correct. Even for historic time zones with very odd offsets like Bombay Time. So when you say 15 degrees, do you also mean only hourly offsets (or discrete 15 degree arcs), or the extant time zones (so including the non hour offsets that currently exist, but not the ones that don't). Or do you mean any 15 degree slice of earth, recognising that there are theoretically a very large number of timezones (Planck time or Planck length) and a country could if they wanted to, use some weird offset and really be no different from whatever country you find who uses a hour offset? I think the former 2 are currently the same and the answer is Zimbabwe, but if I understand correctly the third is Algeria and the second could change to that at any time. Nil Einne (talk) 17:47, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

November 17[edit]

question: John Murray 11 son of John Murray 1775 to 1825 ....did he publish "Letters from the Irish Highlands" letters from the blake family?[edit]

I read in a book "the land of Ireland" by brian de breffny, published by Harry N. Abrams, Inc NY, on page 187, that John Murray published in london 1825....."Letters from The Irish Highlands" consisting of letters... the life of the Blake family of Renvyle County of Galway about the area of Connacht Ireland. Not from Maria Edgeworth? So is that John Murrays or Maria Edgeworth who published that. I don't see it on John Murray's work? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.197.214.174 (talk) 00:11, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

Letters from the Irish Highlands of Connemmara, by a Family Party was published in 1825 by John Murray, though there was also a second edition the same year published by Longman, Hurst, Rees, Orme, Brown, and Green, and there have been one or two reprints since. The publishing house of John Murray was owned in 1825 by John Murray II (1778–1843), son of John Murray I (1737–1793). Maria Edgeworth wasn't a publisher, and I can find no particular connection between her and this book except that she seems to have been acquainted with the authors. --Antiquary (talk) 18:29, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

When did suicide become a sin?[edit]

A lot of Christians believe suicide is a sin. Where does this come from? In the early days, Christians had a disdain for valuing their own lives and sometimes went to great lengths to get themselves martyred or even died by their own hand. Jesus himself caused his mortal body to be killed, per dominant theology. So why is suicide a sin? Temerarius (talk) 04:52, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

You are asking two very different questions here. This question ("Where does this come from?") is not clear. Are you searching for a historical answer (what people believed in the past) or a theological answer (the biblical references that supporters and opponents would use)? Your next question (why is suicide a sin?) is very broad, and many people have different opinions on it. I am not going to give my opinion, because this is an issue that people have very strong feelings for and opinions about, and I don't want to upset anyone. You may find your answer on Yahoo Answers, though: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081212132445AASvnWx You may also ask this question on Quora. SSS (talk) 05:55, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
Nothing in the Bible expressly prohibits suicide. I suggest you read Christian views on suicide.--Shantavira|feed me 13:03, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
Where you'll discover the commandment "thou shalt not kill." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:05, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
Which, as many people (and in particular conservative ones) remind us, might maybe better be translated as "thou shalt not murder", and thus has all kinds of loopholes, from "just wars" to "self defence" and to stoning children who disagree with their elders. Adding suicide to that list should be easy. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:21, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
In a bit of possibly circular reasoning, the argument is made that it has to do with the unlawful taking of life. Thus, warfare, capital punishment, and abortion do not qualify as murder because they are legal - because humans have declared them so, via the legal system. Whether they are morally right is another question. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:07, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
And maybe even more to the point, read Sin. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:19, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
I'm sure there are as many opinions as there are websites, but this one makes the distinction that while suicide is a sin, it's not an unforgiveable sin.[39]Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:10, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
I'm sorry I wasn't clear, I was asking for a historical perspective rather than a theological one. Temerarius (talk) 15:57, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
"Sin" is a theological concept. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:51, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

US flag[edit]

The BBT is on in the background, and one of them has just said that the American flag can't touch the ground...is that true? ——SerialNumber54129 09:42, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

From the United States Flag Code: "The flag should never touch anything beneath it, such as the ground, the floor, water, or merchandise." (link) - Lindert (talk) 09:54, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
Obviously it "can" touch the ground, but the flag code says you should avoid that. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:37, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
An obvious exception is when the flag is draped over a coffin, which is clearly beneath it. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 20:11, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
It may happen, but I don't think it's supposed to [40] [41] [42]

The flag should not be lowered into the grave or allowed to touch the ground.

. BTW regarding the original question according to some sources there's a myth that a flag needs to be destroyed once it's touched the ground. This isn't correct, provided it's fit for use, after cleaning if necessary, it can still be used [43] [44]. Nil Einne (talk) 21:41, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
Jack's point was that the code apparently says the flag should never touch anything "beneath it", but the coffin is beneath it. If the wording is to be taken that literally, it seems that the flag should also not be folded up and stored, as it would then be touching something beneath it. Does air count? Maybe it has to hang vertically in a vacuum at all times.... --Trovatore (talk) 21:46, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
Indeed. The boy wins an award. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 21:57, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
As noted on this part of the flag code,[45] "(n) When the flag is used to cover a casket, it should be so placed that the union is at the head and over the left shoulder. The flag should not be lowered into the grave or allowed to touch the ground." I think the phraseology "beneath it" means relative to a flag in normal upright position. Obviously, the authors of the flag code have no problem with a flag draping a coffin. Also, the flag code is not legally binding, at least not to civilians. It's flag "etiquette". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:00, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
Note that most counties take a dim view of their flag being dropped on the ground, the exception being in the Commonwealth (and some other countries) when military colours are lowered to the ground in a Royal Salute, a practice which dates back to the 16th century. Flags on the ground says: "Americans are usually stunned or horrified when they see it for the first time because they have been conditioned by the idea that the American flag dips to no man". Alansplodge (talk) 20:46, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
I assume your fourth word is also supposed to be "countries"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:06, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

What medal did the King give Private Harry Shell[e]y? What was Harold's surname? And who was General Holman?[edit]

The King decorating Harry

Commons has a picture (at right) entitled "Pvt Harry Shelley receives British Distinguished Service Cross from King George V.jpg". The caption says "Pvt. Harry Shelley, Co A, US 132nd Infantry, 33rd Division receiving the Distinguished Service Cross from King George V".

The source says "Pvt. Harry Shelley, Co A, US 132nd Infantry, 33rd Division receiving British Distinguished Conduct Medal from King George V".

Another source says "Pvt. Harry Shelly being decorated by King George with the Medal of Honor for gallantry in the advance from Hamel on July 4th. He was the first man to be decorated that day. Gen. John J. Pershing and Gen Holman (British) in the background. 33rd Division. Molliens-au-Bois, France, Aug. 6th, 1918. [Handwritten note on back of photo: "Probably the Distinguished Service Cross not MoH."].

Now, the British DSC was for officers only, so we can rule that out, the DCM was for British and Commonwealth troops, but I wouldn't rule out some awards being made to Americans in the First World War in the interests of Allied comradeship, and our article on the battle says "Fourteen Americans were also decorated by the British, including four Distinguished Conduct Medals, four Military Crosses, and six Military Medals. Corporal Thomas A. Pope, who had rushed a German machine-gun during the German counter-attack on 5 July, was one of those who received the DCM, being awarded the medal personally by King George V on 12 August 1918".

So, was it an American DSC, a Medal of Honor, or a British DCM, or what? And, was the Private's surname Shelly or Shelley? And who was General Holman - I've found a General Holman in Russia in 1919, but he seems to have been in the Indian Army Intelligence Branch during the First World War. Thanks, DuncanHill (talk) 14:52, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

"I've found a General Holman in Russia in 1919, but he seems to have been in the Indian Army Intelligence Branch during the First World War. "
Would that be "Lt.-Col. and Bt. Col. Herbert Campbell Holman" of the Indian Army? He is listed in the 1918 New Year Honours among the new Companions of the Order of the Bath. He was already a member of the Order of St Michael and St George and decorated with the Distinguished Service Order. We do not have an article about him. Dimadick (talk) 15:18, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
Yes, interesting character, but as I said, probably not the General Holman in the pic. (I have indented your reply for ease of reading). DuncanHill (talk) 15:23, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
The second source I linked above, says the General Holman in the picture is Herbert Campbell Holman, but I'm not convinced it's right. His dates were 1869-1949, see National Portrait Gallery photo and buried not far from me in Crowhurst. The Germans have an article on him d:wiki:Herbert_Holman. DuncanHill (talk) 15:32, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
Ah! It could be him - the German article has him as QMG of the 4th Army, of which John Monash's Australian Corps was part, and Monash of course was in charge at Hamel. So, I think we've got the General, thanks. DuncanHill (talk) 15:37, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
And I found this forum thread which says he received the American DSC, and the British DCM, "for extraordinary heroism in action near Hamel, Belgium, July 4, 1918. With an Australian soldier, Private Shelly went out and silenced an enemy sniping post and brought back eight prisoners". He was from Chicago. There is some confusion about the date of the photo - I've seen both the 12th and the 8th given. DuncanHill (talk) 15:54, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

───────────────────────── And the American Department of Defense list of DSC recipients lists him as Harry Shelly. DuncanHill (talk) 15:57, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

This, reprinted from the Chicago Tribune has the King giving Shelly the DCM. I haven't been able to find the actual citation for the DCM in the London Gazette though. DuncanHill (talk) 16:34, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
Here's the citation for the American DSC, as you will see it is dated 1919, so the award in the picture must be of the award of the DCM. DuncanHill (talk) 16:39, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
And I've found Yockelson, Mitch (2007). ""We Have Found Each Other at Last": Americans and Australians at the Battle of Hamel in July 1918". Army History. US Army Center of Military History (65): 16–25. which includes the picture and says it was the 12th, and the British DCM. I shall request the renaming of the page on Commons. DuncanHill (talk) 16:45, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

November 18[edit]

Non-EU euro use[edit]

I just read through much of International status and usage of the euro, and parts of it surprised me. For one thing, why did the microstates have to sign agreements in order to be in the eurozone? Andorra I can understand, since its coprinces are in the eurozone (maybe the EU would sanction France if their president were helping a non-EU country join the eurozone without authorisation), but the others I don't quite understand. Was there the implied threat of sanctions if they used it without permission, e.g. "if you start using the euro and minting coins unilaterally, we won't recognise your banks' international monetary transactions"? Merely getting left out of the central bank's government doesn't seem a huge penalty, especially for tiny states whose money has long been tied to their much larger neighbors. And secondly, I just don't quite see how this is different from one state adopting another's currency, e.g. the idea of Panama adopting the euro (International status and usage of the euro#Unilateral adopters, or how Andorra used the franc and the peseta without some sort of agreement. What am I missing? Nyttend (talk) 00:26, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

PS, I'm taking my Merely sentence from the "Unilateral adopters" section: Former European Central Bank president Jean-Claude Trichet has stated the ECB – which does not grant representation to those who unilaterally adopt the euro – neither supports nor deters those wishing to use the currency. Nyttend (talk) 00:27, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Nyttend -- if the microstates were just passively using Euro currency, then that might not have required an agreement, but microstate-minted Euro-denominated coins are considered legal tender within the EU, which definitely does require some kind of agreement. When Panama adopts the dollar, it does not start printing dollar bills (in fact, it had better not!)... 02:19, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
Note that per the above article, Andorra used the Euro for quite a few years before the monetary agreement was concluded. See also Andorra and the euro. You may also be interested in the agreement itself [46]/[47] or this report on the agreements with the other countries [48]/[49]. While the issuing of coins is a big part, it also deals with institutions having access to interbank settlement and payment and securities settlement systems. While I assume they had that anyway before the agreement, the agreement makes it less likely the EU will unilaterally withdraw their access and in particular, without notice. (The agreements require 1 year notice for unilateral termination except when there's non compliance.) See also [50] Nil Einne (talk) 11:24, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

The history of academic dress[edit]

What's the history of academic dress? From when collegians start puting that? Does it an emulation from some scientist? -- 03:36, 18 November 2018 Sadjad mehnati

The article Academic dress contains some hints, including a link to this publication, and more can be found via Undergraduate gowns in Scotland, particularly in the links included in the Footnotes section. The article Town and Gown also alludes to the origin of academic dress.
Long story short: distinctive academic dress dates back to the earliest foundations of European universities in the Middle Ages, which evolved from Cathedral or Monastic schools whose staff and pupils naturally wore ecclesiastical or monastic dress. As universities developed in their own right, Lecturers continued to wear distinctive dress as a mark of their status, and students were often required to wear (different) distinctive dress so that they could be easily recognised amongst non-students in places they weren't meant to be, either at certain times or at all. When attending the University of St Andrews I was told that the original choice of red for undergraduate gowns was so that students could be easily spotted in brothels: this may be apocryphal. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.218.14.42 (talk) 05:53, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

What did Vyners sell?[edit]

Watching an old film (The Small World of Sammy Lee), in the background in one shot was a shop called "Vyners". I can remember it being a chain of shops, but not what they sold. Can anyone remember? Thanks, DuncanHill (talk) 22:58, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Are you sure it was a shop, and not Vyners School? I can't find anything on a chain of stores named Vyners at all. Not in discussion forums, historical documents, ANYTHING. That leads me to believe that 1) It wasn't a shop, but was something else (like that school) or 2) It wasn't a real shop, but a fake one set up for the shot; either a backlot set or a fake storefront or sign set up on location. --Jayron32 03:24, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
My research yielded the same results. I also had a good time scanning dozens (if not hundreds) of photos of Soho circa 1963, and a few interesting Pathé film clips; probably saw every storefront -- no "Vyners". (Interestingly, both the Beatles and the Stones had photo shoots done in Soho, 1963). 107.15.157.44 (talk) 09:12, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
I made some screencaps of the scene (or one of the scenes) you seem to be referring to here [51]. The sign below the name clearly say "novelty" and "shoes" and the items visible in the window seem to be shoes. It looked like the car went past an entrance to Whitechapel station [52] not long before it went past this store, but it's hard to say whether that was really true. I don't think it's possible to tell if it's a chain solely from that part of the film. Nil Einne (talk) 12:46, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
It seems The Grave Maurice is semi famous [53] [54] [55] [56] [57] and was at 269 Whitechapel Road. This suggest Vyners was probably something 263-267 (The Grave Maurice looks quite large and so is possibly more than one store and I'm not sure if Vyners is a whole store) Whitechapel Road. Nil Einne (talk) 12:56, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
This [58] say Vyners was at 267 Whitechapel Road and has a modern image of that section. It doesn't comment on whether it was a chain store. BTW that includes discussion of other locations in the film. Nil Einne (talk) 13:00, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
Also looking at it again I realised I misintepreted the sign. I now think it's not "novelty" and "shoes" but "novelty shoes". Nil Einne (talk) 13:21, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
Thank you Nil Einne, very helpful. I haven't been able to find anything about a chain of shoe shops called Vyners, but the signage seemed so familiar! (I should point out I did not grow up anywhere near the Whitechapel Road). DuncanHill (talk) 14:15, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Racial and ethnicity inequalities comparison Canada and Bangladesh conflict perspective[edit]

Is there a journal article, a website or a book that deals with racial and ethnicity tensions or inequalities in Canada and Bangladesh in comparison in the sociological perspective of conflict theory? Donmust90 (talk) 23:47, 18 November 2018 (UTC)Donmust90Donmust90 (talk) 23:47, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

I can't find any article that explicitly deals with Canada and Bangladesh directly; This article deals mostly with Bangladesh, but mentions Canada; don't know if it has the details you need, but it at least deals with racial conflict and mentions both countries. I hope that gives you a start. --Jayron32 03:21, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

November 19[edit]

E. Bedford Grey[edit]

Come someone help find out who E. Bedford Grey was? He was an 19th century engraver or artist who made this engraving File:CALIFORNIA – KING KALAKAUA AND SUITE, UNDER ESCORT OF MAYOR OTIS AND STAFF, VIEWING THE SEALS FROM THE CLIFF HOUSE, SAN FRANCISCO. SKETCHED BY E. BEDFORD GREY.jpg. Simple google search will yield nothing. Also can anyone find the source which the engraving was originally published in? KAVEBEAR (talk) 02:09, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Hong Kong[edit]

Considering Hong Kong has the most expensive housing, why does it have one of the lowest rates of homelessness? (Sources please.) Benjamin (talk) 03:47, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

What is your source for those two facts. Before we can answer the why? bit, we need to know that your presumptions are true. --Jayron32 03:49, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
If so, please provide sources accordingly. As I would think should be the presumption here, I'm not trying to argue to the point. Benjamin (talk) 05:39, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
I think you're making statements ("HK has low rates of cheap housing and of homelessness") and asking for sources to back up those statements; am I correct? Nyttend (talk) 06:19, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
No, I assume my assumptions are correct. I would want sources to refute them if they are incorrect, but, again, that's not what I'm here for. I'm seeking sources that would answer my question. Benjamin (talk) 07:32, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
Hong Kong ranked world's most expensive housing market for 8th consecutive year. However, I could not find any sources about Hong Kong has the lowest rates of homelessness [59]. Abelmoschus Esculentus 06:35, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
List of countries by homeless population lists Hong Kong as having the second lowest rate of homelessness. Benjamin (talk) 07:31, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
That's a report for 2014. Prices have been soaring since then. Abelmoschus Esculentus 09:17, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
This has an estimate of ~1800 [60]. Singapore is very low, but that's a government estimate so I'd put it in the same category as registered homeless in Hong Kong. Nil Einne (talk) 10:45, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
This says that homeless rates have jumped sharply in recent years as rents have increased and that official figures are probably significant undercounts [61]. Though, even so, the numbers suggested here are still quite low by global standards. Dragons flight (talk) 11:42, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
What is the mortgage status of those tallest working-class residential towers in the world I hear about? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 14:30, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

WWII Americans living in Japan[edit]

During World War II, we all know about internment camps for Japanese living in the United States, but what happened to Americans who may have been residing in Japan before the war? Were they similarly detained (or worse)? I don't know much about this, but I became curious about wartime Americans in Japan after hearing of Katsuma Dan, a Japanese scientist who married Jean Clark, an American researcher in 1936. I believe the family lived in Japan, and I know that Dan worked there throughout the war, though I don't know what his wife was doing at that time. Dragons flight (talk) 11:36, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Not reliable sources, but these ([62][63][64]) are all agreed that the relatively small number of Americans still living in Japan when the two countries went to war were either interned or put under house arrest before eventually being repatriated. --Antiquary (talk) 13:34, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
This article suggests that she continued working in Japan throughout the war:
'The outbreak of WWII and the complexities of being an American in Japan who needed to look out for and protect her children from both militaries, reduced Jean’s productivity in the laboratory. Following the war, and the famous “the last one to go” incident, Jean returned to America and to Woods Hole'.
Alansplodge (talk) 14:17, 19 November 2018 (UTC)