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November 8[edit]

What is the Hoiriger Schottische?[edit]

"The Hoiriger Schottische" is a popular song that apparently came out in 1939. I like the version by Paul Whiteman and his orchestra with vocals by The Modernaires. Googling indicates that it is a modernized folk song. "Schottische" might indicate that it has some connection with Scotland, so my first thought was what is a Hoiriger? But then it got more confusing. The lyrics start with "We did a little schottische at the Hoiriger...", so it appears that schottische is a noun, not an adjective. Anyone able to translate the words or shed any light? Akld guy (talk) 07:30, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

A schottische is a dance, and what you're hearing as "hoiriger" is actually Heuriger, a type of pub in Austria. --Viennese Waltz 09:45, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
You're correct about Schottische, thank you. I'm not hearing it as "hoiriger". As stated in my original post, that is the spelling of the name of the song, as found in many google hits. So, what is "the hoiriger" in the lyrics? Is it a variant of Heuriger or an older spelling of that word? Akld guy (talk) 19:19, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
It's probably an English phonetic spelling. The mention of apple strudel and the "young May wine" makes it quite plausible that they are really dancing at a Heuriger. Literally, Heuriger refers to this year's wine, and it also refers to the place where the owner of a vineyard serves wine, often outdoors in a garden or a courtyard (the description as a "pub" sounds a bit odd to me, although it's not inappropriate for the more established places). It would be interesting to know how well-known the concept was to Americans in the 1930s. --Wrongfilter (talk) 19:50, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

This has been resolved as far as I'm concerned, thank you both very much. Akld guy (talk) 20:38, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

I lived in Austria for many years and I know what a Heuriger is, thank you. I called it a pub because it serves drinks, as a pub does. --Viennese Waltz 08:25, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
My response was directed at Akld Guy, I know that you know what a Heuriger is. I associate "pub" with beer, whereas a Heuriger is, as you know, a wine place. --Wrongfilter (talk) 08:39, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, but it was me who called a Heuriger a type of pub, not Ak1d Guy. --Viennese Waltz 09:25, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
Indeed, Richard RJ: You should have called it a "Beisl", to confuse those who have little grasp of Yiddish (and less of Hebrew). I am still surprised that so many terms of Viennese dialect (gradually disappearing as a result of TV) are straight or modified words used by the Jewish community. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 17:29, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
Who's Richard RJ? -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 18:52, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
It's me, my previous username, which I'm pleasantly surprised anyone remembers. --Viennese Waltz 09:19, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
And I find the the comparison slightly odd, not wrong, just amusingly odd, playing on the stereotypes of an English lager lout against Hans Moser. Do I have to justify myself for that? --Wrongfilter (talk) 10:18, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

November 10[edit]

When did the norm change from monochrome to colour feature films?[edit]

After the introduction of colour film in the 1930s (e.g. The Wizard of Oz and Gone With the Wind), it remained the norm for quite some years for feature films to be shot in black-and-white. Gradually colour became predominant, and for a long time now colour has been the default assumption, although some b/w films continue to be made (e.g. Good Night and Good Luck.).

So, exactly when did the default change from monochrome to colour? I realise that this cannot be pinned down to one specific year, but there must be a range before which monochrome was the norm and after which colour was the norm. This may vary by country to some degree. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 03:48, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

This article gives a range of "Late 1950s" and notes that by the 1960s, the choice to shoot in color was no longer financial, but was a largely artistic choice. Both that article and this article note the introduction of single-strip processes in the early 1950s led to the rapid, widespread adoption of color by the end of the decade; prior color film processes used expensive, three-strip processes (separate negatives for cyan, magenta, and yellow) that made the process slow, time consuming, and expensive, and it was the technological leap to a single-strip color processing (both cite Eastmancolor as the process) that made the transition to mostly color film happen. --Jayron32 04:42, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
That late, eh. Thanks for the info, Jayron. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 19:34, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

I suggest that for Hollywood at least, the best date for the division is a bit later: the mid to late 1960s.

At one time the Oscars had separate award categories for Best Cinematography in color and in B&W. This began with the awards for 1939 and ended with the awards for 1966, when the B&W nominees were The Fortune Cookie, Georgy Girl, Is Paris Burning?, Seconds, and Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?. To me at least, this list (and particularly the first two entries) suggests that B&W was still being used sometimes at that time for financial reasons.

In an attempt to get actual data on this, I went to the IMDB's outdated raw data files available here. (The IMDB makes current data available here, but it does not include as much information as the older files.)

I extracted a list of all US or UK movies (only including actual movies, not TV-movies and other things the IMDb lists) for which color information was available, and counted how many were in color and how many in B&W. Note that I did not attempt to limit the list to feature films; some of the movies listed will be shorts and some will be documentaries.

Anyway, for the period 1930 to 1980, this is what I found:

  Year     B&W     Color
  1930     1419       92   (6.1%)
  1931     1454       25   (1.7%)
  1932     1323       23   (1.7%)
  1933     1276       33   (2.5%)
  1934     1336       62   (4.4%)
  1935     1276      124   (8.9%)
  1936     1243      126   (9.2%)
  1937     1253      142  (10.2%)
  1938     1141      165  (12.6%)
  1939      967      190  (16.4%)
  1940      974      171  (14.9%)
  1941     1033      186  (15.3%)
  1942      971      213  (18.0%)
  1943      838      191  (18.6%)
  1944      743      214  (22.4%)
  1945      757      213  (22.0%)
  1946      728      254  (25.9%)
  1947      670      259  (27.9%)
  1948      706      295  (29.5%)
  1949      727      278  (27.7%)
  1950      679      283  (29.4%)
  1951      643      310  (32.5%)
  1952      538      353  (39.6%)
  1953      513      402  (43.9%)
  1954      387      420  (52.0%)
  1955      363      424  (53.9%)
  1956      357      397  (52.7%)
  1957      459      314  (40.6%)
  1958      361      283  (43.9%)
  1959      312      295  (48.6%)
  1960      293      288  (49.6%)
  1961      321      319  (49.8%)
  1962      327      330  (50.2%)
  1963      257      399  (60.8%)
  1964      297      450  (60.2%)
  1965      340      532  (61.0%)
  1966      265      561  (67.9%)
  1967      198      664  (77.0%)
  1968      227      691  (75.3%)
  1969      182      757  (80.6%)
  1970      110     1088  (90.8%)
  1971       94     1072  (91.9%)
  1972       81      960  (92.2%)
  1973       70      945  (93.1%)
  1974       68      916  (93.1%)
  1975       65      864  (93.0%)
  1976       85      919  (91.5%)
  1977       74      768  (91.2%)
  1978       68      824  (92.4%)
  1979       62      762  (92.5%)
  1980       64      729  (91.9%)

This data is consistent with what I said at the start.

I would also suggest that in addition to the availability of Eastmancolor film, an additional reason for the change taking place at this time is the desire to compete with television. At least in the US, NTSC color TV broadcasting began in the 1950s, but initially color TVs were too expensive for most viewers. As the price came down over time, more people could watch TV in color, movies still made in B&W must have suffered in comparison.

--76.69.46.228 (talk) 23:38, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the data. So it looks like colour first outstripped b/w in 1954, lasted for only 2 years, then dropped back sharply in 1957 and didn't recover until 1962. What could explain this? -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 21:38, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
One out of every eleven US/UK cinematically released movies in 1980 was black and white? That does not pass the sniff test for me. Would you be able to post the list somewhere? It's bad form to rely on memory - especially mine - but I just find that very jarring. Matt Deres (talk) 23:30, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
Sorry, I discarded the data after constructing the table and I don't feel like reconstructing it. I suspect the B&W "movies" were the sort that never gets a wide release. --76.69.46.228 (talk) 08:32, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
Using the data in WP, five US films from 1980 were in B&W, out of 229 in total, and one UK film from 1980 was B&W, out of 47 films. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 15:50, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
Re The Longest Day (film) which was shot in monochrome in 1962 and "was the most expensive black-and-white film made until 1993, when Schindler's List was released" according to our article. Another article, WAR ON FILM – The Longest Day, says that Darryl F Zanuck "wanted it shot in black and white to look realistic and like most of the archive film of the war".
Earlier British war films, such as Sink the Bismarck! (1960), were shot in monochrome so that wartime newsreel footage could be spliced into the action sequences, reducing the reliance on unconvincing models of ships and aeroplanes. See BRITISH WAR FILMS, 1939 - 45 (p. 150) by S. P. Mackenzie. Malta Story (1953) is another British war film which makes liberal use of archive newsreels, especially the climactic scene of the arrival of SS Ohio. Also Reach for the Sky (1956) which I think used actual gun camera footage to enliven the dogfight scenes.
Alansplodge (talk) 18:05, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
Extended content for thems that cares. Matt Deres (talk) 20:04, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Reposted from my talk page (this page is semi-protected so the user could not post here directly). As Lugnuts and others have indicated above, it's trickier than expected to identify this stuff. Matt Deres (talk) 20:04, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

With regard to your "sniff test" remark here, now that I had some time I decided to examine the 64 movies that my previous computations gave as the number of B&W releases in the year 1980.

I had assumed previously that there would not be a significant number of double-counted movies, i.e. those shown as both color and B&W because they contained segments of each. But in fact 27 of the 64 were in this category. Those titles were:

Agee (1980); At the Fountainhead (of German Strength) (1980); Barnes & Barnes: Fish Heads (1980); The Big Red One (1980); Blue Suede Shoes (1980); Broken Nights (1980); Ecstatic Stigmatic (1980); Fantastic (1980); Fist of Fear, Touch of Death (1980); Fixation (1980); Generations of Resistance (1980); Ghosts of Cape Horn (1980); Journeys from Berlin/1971 (1980); The Last Prom (1980); Life Dances On... (1980); The Life and Times of Rosie the Riveter (1980); Lion of the Desert (1980); Memories of Duke (1980); The Mirror Crack'd (1980); Musing (1980); Popeye (1980); Raging Bull (1980); The Sea Wolves (1980); Send in the Clowns (1980); Tell Me a Riddle (1980); This Is America Part 2 (1980); The Trials of Alger Hiss (1980).

I have not attempted to look up their IMDB pages to find further information.

I did look up the other 37, the ones shown only as B&W. (I did this manually, so there may be occasional errors.) And as I suspected, most were documentaries or shorts. Specifically, there were:

And that leaves 6 features for your sniff test:

Now that the page has been semi-protected again, I hope you will post find this interesting enough to post part or all of this data in the thread for me as you see fit. --76.69.46.228 (talk) 22:50, 13 November 2018 (UTC)


"To me at least, this list (and particularly the first two entries) suggests that B&W was still being used sometimes at that time for financial reasons."

In the 1950s, several of the blackand-white films were B movies and associated low-budget products. JMost of the films of Ed Wood, for example, were black-and-white. By the 1960s, even the low-budget films were switching to color. Per our article on the B movie:

  • "In July 1960... That year, Roger Corman took AIP down a new road: "When they asked me to make two ten-day black-and-white horror films to play as a double feature, I convinced them instead to finance one horror film in color." The resulting House of Usher typifies the continuing ambiguities of B picture classification. It was clearly an A film by the standards of both director and studio, with the longest shooting schedule and biggest budget Corman had ever enjoyed. But it is generally seen as a B movie: the schedule was still a mere fifteen days, the budget just $200,000 (one tenth the industry average)" Dimadick (talk) 20:14, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

November 12[edit]

Name of an arcade maze video game of mid 80's[edit]

Hi all, I'm trying to find the name of an arcade maze video game (circa 1985) similar to Pac-Man with horizontal scrolling and a fantasy, dungeon-like style. I remember the second stage was much larger than the first. Thanks in advance.--Carnby (talk) 21:26, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Not much to go on, so some guesses: Berzerk, Castle Wolfenstein, or its successor, Wolfenstein. Akld guy (talk) 23:06, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
It was not Wolfenstein since it was in an arcade cabinet and was not made for home computers. Berzerk is a better guess, but graphics were maybe a little better.--Carnby (talk) 08:57, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
Have you looked through the list at Category:Maze games?--Shantavira|feed me 10:15, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
Yes but I didn't find the game I was looking for; besides, the category does not separate arcade coin-op games from home computer games.--Carnby (talk) 13:15, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
  • I'm fairly certain this is Gauntlet, as it features a top-down maze like Pac-Man and a fantasy setting, and came out in 1985. If not, these types of games are generally called dungeon crawls, and they exist in many perspectives: top-down, side-scroll, isometric, and first-person perspectives. You could search for other top-down dungeon crawl video games of that era. --Jayron32 19:02, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
Hmm, I don't think it is Gauntlet. I remember there were one or two characters, not four, and the dungeon was a bit different, with less space between the walls.--Carnby (talk) 08:42, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
Maybe Venture (video game) or Fantasy (video game). There was also a game called, in some markets "Opa opa" and in some "Fantasy Zone: The Maze" that was part of the Fantasy Zone series that had Pac-Man-like elements in it; we don't have an article on it, but there are some screenshots here --Jayron32 13:34, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

How about The Tower of Druaga? --McDoobAU93 13:37, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Venture and Fantasy have too simple graphics; Fantasy zone is too coloured... The Tower of Druaga is indeed VERY similar to the one I was looking for. The only problem is that the dungeons are all, more or less, the same: I remember the second stage was much larger that the first one and had slightly different colours; besides I remember walls, not pipes to delimitate the dungeon path; I could be wrong anyway... update: I think it could be Tutankham or a very similar game.--Carnby (talk) 17:01, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

November 13[edit]

Creating a page for a Talent[edit]

I am trying to create a page for a digital talent. I am creating this page on behalf of the talent's team. She is a YouTube sensation and we would like to have a page for her for encyclopedia purposes. How would I move forward in publishing? I have been declined every time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amberscholl1 (talkcontribs) 00:48, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

@Amberscholl1: Please see the replies at the Teahouse. RudolfRed (talk) 01:20, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

November 14[edit]

How do crazy credits work?[edit]

I understand that when a person's name appears in the credits of a TV series, that is the official record that the person worked on the TV episode. But what about Treehouse of Horror? These episodes of The Simpsons usually have weird names for most of the people who worked on the episode. Somewhere, there has to be a key indicating who had what name.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 15:50, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

There doesn't necessarily have to be a key for the general public. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:00, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
But for those who need it, how do they do that?— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 18:57, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
Need what? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:22, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
I would have directed you to Wikipedia's article on Closing credits, but it's dreadful, almost worse than useless. The use of credits is something negotiated by the various entertainment unions such as the Screen Actors Guild and the Directors Guild of America and the like. For just one example, Here is the rules and requirements of the Producer's Guild of America for closing credits of TV series, while Here are the rules for the DGA. Famously, George Lucas quite the DGA over a credits issue with the Empire Strikes Back (their rules are a bit complicated, but because Lucas didn't put Irvin Kershner's name in the opening credits alongside his own "Lucasfilm" credit before the opening crawl, they tried to fine him, and he quit instead. The row led to him hiring the non-guild Richard Marquand to direct Return of the Jedi.[1] Lucas's penchant for working in England for filming also likely comes from his rather contentious relationships with the unions in LA. There are probably several options here. 1) The rules may be different for TV than Film 2) The people working on the Simpsons may be non-union, which would exempt them from the normal rules. 3) Specific exemptions may have been worked out with the unions for these episodes. 4) The producers just pay a nominal fine for not doing the credits a certain way, and move on. 5) Maybe we're all mistaken, and the credits aren't actually required. --Jayron32 00:23, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Baseball Bugs the professionals in the business who would want to see the proof.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 15:46, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
The proof would be in the contracts. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:15, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

November 16[edit]

Help identifying a song[edit]

Can someone identify the song or at least the language of the song that starts around 41:20 on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5cGZG72EaQ ? 78.0.230.255 (talk) 22:07, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

If you click on "Show More", it should show you a list of every song Youtube's Content ID platform has identified in the video. While it doesn't tell you the time, it's not hard to guess from the list that it's most likely ดาวมหาลัย and sure enough clicking on the link on Youtube takes you to the official music video copy [2] and the beginning sounds the same (I didn't listen very far). There language therefore is likely Thai. Nil Einne (talk) 12:49, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
BTW, despite 4 million views, that version seems to be broken. (I initially thought it was my computer but I don't think so anymore.) You can find a possibly different version here [3]. Note that we can't link to potential copyvios here, which actually probably includes your file but I'll let that slide so if you want to link to any other versions, make sure they are not copyvios. Nil Einne (talk) 13:22, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

November 17[edit]